Writer Editor Relationship

by Phil Gladwin on October 4, 2007

And here’s something completely different.

This is scarily accurate.

(Thanks Kath for sending it.)

{ 25 comments… read them below or add one }

Amz October 23, 2007 at 8:54 am

Haha, thanks for posting this Philip.

I think editors have the potential to play a more helpful role, but they often get caught up in their own ideas of what is a “good story”. If they understood the workings of writing and realised their role was to encourage writers to tell a story the writer wants to tell, then I think they’d be more useful.

Essentially what I’m saying is that a good editor would ask questions to help the writer along (rather than make suggestions, which to me is not their role at all). Sadly, you’re probably right in saying most are like the editor in that clip.

Philip October 23, 2007 at 1:17 pm

This video clip is SO accurate it’s scary. And very funny. It’s become quite famous among writers and editors here in London!

Yes, you’re right, the editor’s job, (and the sort of editor I like to work with will work like this) will point out where your script is failing IN ITS OWN TERMS, and gently guide you to explore your own solutions to those problems. It’s all too common that editors feel they have to tell you what kind of story you should be telling, even the sort of morality you should be using. It’s kind of understandable on mass market high volume tv shows, where there is considerable pressure to get a product out the door, but I feel it does lead to terribly bland output.

VBgirl October 23, 2007 at 2:16 pm

It’s funny. I don’t know why but I think all the editors want to see a character death at some point, somehow… and that’s really funny and serious at the same time.
Is it just because it can “sell” or do they really think it always brings something good to the script?

Amz October 23, 2007 at 2:23 pm

Philip – Do you think the reason so many editors end up like that video is because they lack fundamental understanding of how writing works?

VBgirl – that’s an interesting point, and I wonder if it is something to do with what will “sell”, or if it’s to do with what they think writers should do (possibly based on uninformed opinion).

Philip October 24, 2007 at 5:30 pm

Death is always the Go-To suggestion in these cases – I guess because it’s primal, and it’s something that can begin the most powerful of stories, or provide an ending that seems ‘meaningful’ without much effort. The thing to do is try to create stories that don’t involve death! Often you have a perfectly good small story that would be perfectly engaging without a death if you tell it right.

Why do editors end up like that? To be fair, there’s a constant pressure on them – find the problems in the script and get the script sorted. As an editor you should know you aren’t supposed to lead the writer, because if you do the next draft usually suffers.(Much better to get them to come up with their own solution) Yet you often have the producer yelling at you to get the script ready, so you can’t resist trying to short cut the process. Let alone those editors who actually want to be writers, and so are really trying to impose their own vision of the story on the writer when they should be trying to write themselves. When I was an editor and knowing I wanted to write I was so paranoid about this possible accusation I actually used to err the other way, often actually leaving the writer high and dry by pointing out the problems and not even trying to help find the solutions, which was’t always appreciated.(Interestingly, the writers who got through this often came out with great scripts)

Amz October 25, 2007 at 5:04 am

Sounds like you had a lot of self-awareness as an editor (maybe even a bit too much). Do you think working as an editor has helped you develop as a writer?

Philip October 25, 2007 at 1:02 pm

I think working as an editor was terrifically useful. Both in terms of learning about good and bad writing, but also, equally importantly, in seeing the way the industry worked, how script editors and producers and directors all contribute to the process. The most important thing I ever learned was that there are many many reasons that writing can get bounced, or cut, or trashed, and most of those reasons actually have actually very little to do with the quality of the script on the table. That was very very important for the darker hours!

Amz October 26, 2007 at 5:40 am

It seems to be a bit of a balancing act between what the other people involved want and what the writer wants. And also figuring out what will work and what won’t, even if it could be a great concept.

I’m beginning to see a “balancing act” motif with all of this!

Philip October 26, 2007 at 12:23 pm

It’s one long balancing act. High up on a very thin pole. Over sharp rocks…

Amz October 26, 2007 at 1:22 pm

Interesting image. But I also believe if you succeed with the balancing, manage to hold on to the very thin pole and avoid the sharp rocks (possibly despite scrapes along the way), it’s really rewarding. Otherwise we’d be crazy to try it, right?

Raymond October 28, 2007 at 5:42 am

Let’s hope it’s not really like that but wouldn’t be surprised if it were.
Anyone have any answers for us in the US.

Amz October 28, 2007 at 10:54 am

From what I’ve heard it’s pretty much like that anywhere Raymond. Unless you get an editor who understands the writing process or has a LOT of experience with screenwriters and knows what works and what doesn’t and when that might change for individual writers.

If you’re dealing with an editor, your best bet is to try and find one that people you respect have dealt with (eg check out credentials, lists of people the editor has worked with and stuff). Otherwise I’d suggest smiling and nodding and taking it all with a grain of salt.

Philip October 29, 2007 at 8:41 am

It’s very rewarding, Amz, course it is… and advice re editors is true – the real problem is that unless the editor is respected by the producer and they really are working as a team, you can find yourself doing a whole host of work for an editor, as they try to lead you in one direction, which you then have to unpick and reverse when the producer sees what you have done and tells you to go in the other direction. 99% of the time the producer wins in these situations, because they are the producer, so you can waste a whole load of time. And then of course the executive producer can weigh in later on, and take you in a third, previously unconsidered direction that negates the previous month’s work. Can be a REAL pain in the behind! Really you have to spot who has the real power and push as hard as you can to get their input as early as possible. (That’s a solid gold tip!)

Amz October 29, 2007 at 8:53 am

Thanks for that tip, I can see it’s value, and I never would have thought to consider that. I would have just written draft after draft after draft based on all the different power people without thinking about who had the ultimate power.

Do you think it would also help to be familiar with who you’re working with? Obviously you can’t help it if you don’t personally know the person, but if you sort of do a bit of research on their past projects and ask other people you know if they know what the people you’ll be working with are like. Is that beneficial?

Philip October 29, 2007 at 9:17 am

AMZ – very very beneficial. Not that you usually have much say in it, and you also have to have similar taste to the people you ask, but forwarned is for armed – and occasionally I have declined projects based on reports like that…

Amz October 30, 2007 at 8:52 am

I think looking people up also helps you know who you’re dealing with, and that information might help you work around problems you have with them.

For example, if you’re working with a producer who has criticised every good writer they’ve worked with, you can be aware of that and take the criticism without feeling like it’s a really personal attack on you as a writer.

(not that I think producers do that, it’s just an example)

Tonja October 31, 2007 at 6:46 pm

I finally got to sit down and watch this clip and it was hilarious! Well, not “hilarious”, but you know…well you don’t “know”, but…

;)

Amz October 31, 2007 at 10:23 pm

Ha! Your comment just made me laugh Tonja.

And you made me think of something else I find helpful. Knowing what kind of characteristics are associated with not-so-good professionals.

If you look at the writer in that clip, he’s a bit confused, but he also seems to be almost relying on what Mr Editor is saying, which might not be the best thing to do (well, not the “best” thing, but you know…).

I think if people are aware of whether they’re dealing with someone who knows what they’re doing and someone who thinks they know what they’re doing, you can work more effectively.

Tonja October 31, 2007 at 10:59 pm

Great point, Amz! I was seriously sitting here wondering whether the writer was going to get up and just say “Forget it!” to the editor. They were really going in circles! He relied way too much on the editor, which is understandable for an aspiring writer who desperately want to get his/her work out there (and the BEST quality work, at that). I’ve never personally had an editor, but I can imagine that working with one similar to the one in the above clip would leave the writer even more lost than (s)he was before!

Deirdre October 31, 2007 at 11:54 pm

The editor writer relationship reminds me a lot of working with a dramaturge. (Unfortunately I can’t access the clip, I’m on a slow dial-up) but I think I can imagine it, I think I’ve been there.

And it’s so true about being pulled or pushed in different directions as a script moves through the levels on its way to production.

I think that’s why it’s so important to get the script to a really solid place before you shop it around. And the less opinions on it beforehand the better.

That was a fascinating comment Philip about an editor leading a writer and finding that the script usually suffers as a result.

Interesting thread.

Amz November 1, 2007 at 4:00 am

Deirdre, funny you should mention dramaturges because I’ve been studying dramaturgy at university. Fortunately the lecturer has 15 years experience and always, always, ALWAYS told us never to try and tell the writer what to do. Her method was more about giving constructive criticism, asking questions which might help the writer find a way to clarify things etc.

But I actually thought the same thing when I saw that clip. So many dramaturges try and control the writer (or director), when really they should try and help without interfering in the creative process. That’s why I think it would help editors/dramaturges to learn about writing by doing writing (so they know a bit more about the processes a writer can go through).

Deirdre November 1, 2007 at 4:18 am

You know I’ve heard them called dramaturkeys but only by themselves, haha.

Anyway I think the big thing is, what makes it hard is: the quality of the work – when a dramaturge/editor finds herself working on a script that is clearly lacking, then what’s to do? – but when the script is strong, professional, clean, but not to the editor’s taste, that’s another matter altogether – perhaps it ends up being about a good marriage because the audience as an entity will never agree either – some like blood, some like sunset –

but make it good, true to itself

I think your teacher is on the right track – and you too.

Amz November 1, 2007 at 12:42 pm

Thanks Deirdre!

I think the point about taste is an important one. In theory people should be able to read a script and say “it’s not necessarily my thing, but I can appreciate it’s value”. I often find myself trying to be objective when I read something or watch a film, and I think it can help people to give better criticism.

Tonja November 1, 2007 at 3:47 pm

In an ideal world, most criticism would be more objective. I think it’s easy to dismiss a well-written film just because the genre or style isn’t to your liking. I think we may be predisposed to judge a movie/TV show primarily based on how it pleases us before we judge how talented the writer is.

Amz November 2, 2007 at 5:56 am

I agree Tonja. There have definitely been films that I’ve watched which I have not liked because of something like the visual effects or the cinematography or the acting, but some of them were written really well. And that’s when I might go and check out what else the writer has done and see what their other stuff is like.

Film/tv depends on so many different areas of expertise that I try hard not to judge peoples work based on one thing I’ve seen.

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